The following is a conversation between Christine Quinn, CEO of Win, and Denver Frederick, Host of The Business of Giving on AM 970 The Answer WNYM in New York City.
Denver: In one city after another, you hear about the homelessness crisis. And when you visualize it, do you picture a single man, perhaps sleeping on a subway? Or asking passers-by for some spare change? Me, too. But what if that is an inaccurate picture? And if it isn’t, are policies and programs being directed to where they are most needed? With us tonight to help provide clarity on all of this is the former Speaker of the New York City Council Christine Quinn, who currently serves as a Chief Executive Officer of Win, formerly known as Women In Need.
Good evening, Christine, and welcome to The Business of Giving!
Christine: Thank you.
…70% of the people in shelters last night, 70% were families with children. The majority is not singles on the street; and within the singles community, the majority of singles are in shelters, not out on the street.
…these are important facts. Not because you want to pit one type of homeless person against each other, so to speak, but if you don’t know the facts, then there isn’t the right media coverage and attention, and then politicians… are chasing the headlines.
Denver: So provide us with the full picture of who makes up the homeless population in New York City.
Christine: And I think what you said out – that vision of a homeless man (usually), disheveled on the street – I think is who New York thinks is homeless. Now, why do they think that? Well, one, because they see those people. You see them there on the street, et cetera. Two, I would say papers like the New York Post had made a decision to pick the scariest pictures of homeless men they could and repeatedly put them on the cover to really create an “us-them,” not to bring people together around homelessness. It’s been effective from their perspective.
Now, 70% of the people in shelter last night, 70% were families with children.
Denver: That’s incredible.
Christine: So, the majority is not singles on the street; and within the singles community, the majority of singles are in shelter, not out on the street. So, these are important facts. Not because you want to pit one type of homeless person against each other, so to speak, but if you don’t know the facts, then there isn’t the right media coverage and attention. And then politicians – I say this freely as one who’s done this – are chasing the headlines. They’re trying to make the bad headline go away; in this case, the cover of the New York Post about somebody asking for money, for example. And so, they drive all of the policy there.
Two, if we don’t – notwithstanding the President of the United States – facts matter. That is the fact of homelessness. The fact of homelessness is that 70% of the people in shelter last night were families with children.
…it is far more likely for a homeless child to be a homeless adult than a child who has never experienced homelessness.
Denver: Of that 70%, Christine, how many of those are children?
Christine: Within the 70%, there are more children than there are seats in Madison Square Garden, to put it into a visual; 25% of the homeless in shelter are 6 years of age or younger. The average stay at a WIN shelter – we are the largest provider of shelter by far to families– 10%, so you can extrapolate from what our experience – the average length of stay is 15 months, over a year. So, 25% are under 6.
In essence, they are spending over a quarter of their life that they’ve lived in shelter. That is a traumatic experience for children on a multiple of different levels that presently our system doesn’t even focus on– dealing with that trauma these children are experiencing. That’s one of the reasons why it is far more likely for a homeless child to be a homeless adult than a child who has never experienced homelessness.
But if you said to the average New Yorker: Is the face of homelessness a 5-year-old? They’ll be like, “No.” I have had people, very intelligent, involved New Yorkers, people involved in civic life, who have said, “Until I talked to you, I didn’t know there were homeless children.” Now, that’s not as ignorant a statement or a kind of a detached rich person statement as you think. I’ve heard many people say that to me. Why? You don’t see them. Two, they haven’t gotten the press coverage they deserve. That’s why we call our clients and families the forgotten face of homelessness. Why else? It’s too hard to think about.
Denver: That’s right. It’s very uncomfortable. Isn’t it?
Christine: It’s very uncomfortable.
Denver: And I bet there’s lots of people in government who are unaware of that very fact.
Denver: Is it growing or not — family homelessness?
Christine: We, at last month or so, have stabilized, but we’re still at an all-time high. But a one-month stabilization is not significant yet, and so I also believe that we’ll see the Fall numbers go up, in part because people will move out once school starts. You’ll kind of eke it through the summer, but then everybody’s got to go back to school.
Half or so of our clients come to WIN; the top reason is through eviction. But they don’t come usually from where the Marshal shows up… to WIN. They go to stay with friends and family. Now, their aunt they’re staying with may have her children living with her. So, these are doubled- and tripled-up situations. When that can’t last any longer, they come to us.
The second largest reason why people come to shelter – very, very close – is domestic violence. Now, again most often, they don’t come right to shelter. It’s not exactly like you see on Law & Order when the police show up. They’ll go wherever they think is safe until it’s not safe anymore, and then they’ll come to us.
We are growing because the crisis is growing. This is tragically a growth industry, which is a horrible, horrible condemning and indicting statement about the city of New York.
Denver: How many shelters does WIN operate, and how many people… families stayed in your facilities last night?
Christine: We had about 1,700 families. We have 5,000 people on average a night; 2,700 of whom are children, which means anyone under 18. We right now operate 11. We’re building one as we speak in Coney Island, have started the building process in Staten Island, and will take over two buildings to be shelters by the end of the year in the Park Slope-Gowanus area. So we are growing because the crisis is growing. This is tragically a growth industry, which is a horrible, horrible condemning and indicting statement about the city of New York.
The top reason people come to shelter is eviction, but over half the moms are working. And that’s a statement about the affordability and the income inequality realities of our city.
There’s a big missing link there that the city is not looking at — the affordable housing plan, first and foremost, through the eyes of ending the homeless crisis.
Denver: So when a woman comes to a WIN shelter, how many of them are employed?
Christine: About 51% to 52% of our moms show up working. It’s interesting; we don’t call our job training a “job training program” because our mothers were offended, like, “We have jobs. We need to build our income.”
Christine: So we call it income-building, a little thing, but a big thing. Obviously, having a good paying job is a key indicator related to your success. When you exit shelter, defining success is not returning, which is the most important and the most fundamental. And just think of it: the top reason people come to shelter is eviction, but over half the moms are working. And that’s a statement about the affordability and the income inequality realities of our city.
But I really believe, a part of the reason the crisis has gotten so big is that the city administration – not this one, not any one – have seen the reality that homelessness and the affordability crisis are two sides of the same coin. I heard a great speech this morning at Crain’s from Vicki Been who is I think our terrific Deputy Mayor for Economic Development and Housing. She didn’t mention homelessness in her speech because that doesn’t fall under her; it falls under the Deputy Mayor for Human Services. There’s a big missing link there that the city is not looking at– the affordable housing plan, first and foremost, through the eyes of ending the homeless crisis.
Denver: We have a lot of silos in this world. There’s no question about it. I had somebody on the show—
Christine: It’s not Vicki’s fault. That’s the structure tonight, and we need to change it.
Denver: No, it’s the way the structure is.
I had somebody on the show recently who is in the health arena, and he said, “You would think the federal government working in health, that we would have a conversation with the agricultural department? We’ve never had a single one.” It’s completely separate when they should be linked.
So, when someone steps into a WIN homeless shelter, what will be distinctive about it?
Christine: Let me just say one thing first. No homeless family — I assume it’s the same for singles — can walk into the door of a shelter. They first have to go to the intake. All the family intakes are in one place in the Bronx. That is a grueling, dehumanizing process, which I firmly, in the loudest possible terms, condemn the city for the way they’ve run it.
Denver: Well, you issued a report on that earlier this year, doing just that. What’s the problem?
Christine: Well, the problem is the perspective of intake isn’t: How do we get you to the services you need? How do we address the experience you’re having? Intake’s job — if you define someone’s job by how they do it consistently — is to divert people out the door. First of all, you need massive paperwork. I don’t know that you or I would have the paperwork necessary to show.
Denver: Well, I tell you one thing. I don’t have any paperwork of where I lived before I’m living now.
Christine: Exactly, so that’s a problem. Can you remember like your last 10 residences? All you’ve had, like: Where was that first apartment when you graduated from college? No. Not unless somebody who’s fleeing domestic violence, got evicted, et cetera. And I’ve had people say, “I’m living with my aunt.” They call the aunt and say, “You don’t love your niece? What are you doing?” So they come to us after that trauma experience, which we’re seeking with the help of Comptroller Stringer to reform.
So when they come to us, the immediate thing that’s going to be different…most people show up in the middle of the night; so the intake is done by the security staff. When we do our work – this is not a requirement of contract, not a citywide standard, but let me say it is the best practice – all based on trauma-informed care. So, our security staff is trained in trauma intervention and trauma-informed care, so they know not just to see that mom and her children and maybe a dad as new residents; they see them as people who’ve been through trauma, who are experiencing trauma, and interact with them in that kind of a way. They give priority to the children and things like that. So that’s different.
Two, what they’re going to find once they’ve been there the next morning because it’s usually in the middle of the night, is that there’s more…because we raised so much private – not so much, but we need more – private money, we have an Income Building Program. All of the staff are involved in trauma-informed care. If the next day, their first day is a day off… a school break, we have an all-day camp on-site for the kids. If it’s summer, there’s a STEAM-based summer camp. So that is something unique and different — the holistic nature of what we call the way to WIN.
We meet them where they’re at with no shame or blame, and everything we do is focused on trauma-informed care and strength-based tracks practices…The mom is homeless because of a bunch of factors beyond her control. Two, she’s kept her family together without a solid roof over her head, or with a batterer. She’s Superwoman, but you have to help her access.
Denver: That’s great. Well, a woman is going to be there on average about 15 months. What happens during that time? What kind of services do you provide mom and the kids?
Christine: First, it depends on what the nature of the family’s situation is
Denver: You meet them where they’re at.
Christine: Exactly. We meet them where they’re at with no shame or blame, and everything we do is focused on trauma-informed care and strength-based tracks practices. So, look, we could go into the first meeting and be like, “You are homeless. You failed… makes you a questionable mom. Here are the 10 things you have to do to show you got it together or whatever, and then we’ll help you.” No! The mom is homeless because of a bunch of factors beyond her control. Two, she’s kept her family together without a solid roof over her head, or with a batterer. She’s Superwoman, but you have to help her access.
Denver: Creative, resilient, persevering. I mean amazing!
Christine: All of the above, which none of them feel because society does not value those things if the person does not have a home. So, that’s critical.
And now some people will have mental illness. Some of it will be episodic because quite frankly, you’re in shelter with your kids; if you’re not a little anxious and depressed, you’re full-on crazy. So some of it is episodic, but some of it is persistent and profound. Sometimes, the children will have mental illness. Sometimes, there’s substance abuse. Sometimes, there’s not an ability to work; there’s inability to work.
So, it depends. Each family gets an individualized plan; each member of the family gets an individualized plan. I would say our Children’s Services – this amazing woman; she needs to get the key to the city someday — Tammy Ortiz. Ms. Tammy runs it with such…
Christine: Yes. And she – this is not breaking a confidence; she speaks to this publicly – comes from a domestic-violence background and really knows –
Christine: Yes …and these kids’ experiences… and she does a great, great job. I’ve often been chastised by Ms. Tammy for asking too directed questions.
Denver: I could see you doing that.
Christine: Oh, please.
Denver: Good for Ms. Tammy.
Christine: She rocks.
Denver: I’m on her side.
Christine: Me, too.
Denver: Well, not to call it job training or anything, but income building, you do have employee initiatives. Do you have partners where you’re able to place some of these women over time?
Christine: We do have partners. So one great partner is the Hotel Union.
Denver: That’s great.
Christine: We identify women. Our clients put them through their training program and then get them placed in hotels. These are good union jobs. You can end up in like $36 an hour. This is great. We’ve had partnerships with the food industry. Andy Arons over at Gourmet Garage was exceedingly generous and paid for food handlers licensing classes at WIN; that’s like $500 bucks if you had to pay for it yourself. And then, they are able to interview at Gourmet Garage. We had a dad actually who took the training; he was already at a supermarket. His manager said, “Great. Now, we can put you in management training. That was what was holding you back.” Because our vision is to develop these kinds of tracked relationships, if you will. Track can be a bad word in school in the old days, but a good word in this where we’re connecting you to jobs that have openings, but have projected growth that meet your skills.
Now, a lot of our moms said to us, “We’d love to learn office skills because construction, hotel… are like you start the night shift and childcare is an issue. So, with the generosity of the Francine LeFrak Foundation and Google, and the United Nations Credit Union Foundation – who knew that was a thing Francine did; they’re now one of our big partners – you’re taking office training computer skills, and then we’re working to place moms or dads in those jobs. I’ve been to one of the graduations. Francine LeFrak was there herself, and it was just so…parents came; boyfriends came; all kinds of people came just to support them. It was really lovely.
Denver: That’s really sweet. And that’s a great point you made because I don’t think a lot of people understand what it does when somebody has to work the night shift.
Christine: It’s very hard.
Denver: And it is unbelievable when you have kids. I mean, it just becomes another cost center, and these women are juggling enough already. Throw that on top of it; it is something.
Let’s talk about a little bit more about these kids because it’s hard for me to get my arms around that almost. I had read someplace that 1 out of every 8 children in the New York City public school system has been homeless in the last five years, which again stops you in your tracks. What is it like to live a life like this if you’re a homeless kid?
Christine: So that study was put up by the Institute on Children and Poverty, which is an amazing research and think tank organization, which I’d urge listeners to follow and get their information. That also includes children who are doubled up and tripled up, not just in shelter, but nonetheless… and that is a traumatizing experience.
Homeless children go to two to three schools a year. We’re having an issue right now with some families who are in scattered-site supportive that’s permanent with services. We’re moving them into a beautiful new building on East 91st Street – thank you, Councilor Kallos. But school started; they’re going to be moved in in 10 days. Wish it could have been before, but construction delays, et cetera. The school is like, “Well, they can’t come until they have a Con Ed bill.” Well, they’re across the street; literally across the street is the school. So, things like that… we’ve worked it through…so kids go to more than one school. Kids get bullied horribly.
Denver: Yes, I can imagine.
Christine: That’s why we make sure everybody has brand-new backpacks full of supplies for school– one less thing to single you out. So that’s a big problem. Kids who are experiencing homelessness don’t know: Should they put down roots? Should they take the risk to become friends with people? Also, children are further behind …changing schools; maybe not getting to finish homework because there’s a battering situation going on; maybe really having to support mom with the younger children. We’ve seen a lot of that where little children are really the adults because of all of the stressors in the family.
That’s one reason why with Advocates for Children and others, we’ve prioritized funding for what we call Bridging the Gap social workers. They are social workers, city employees placed in the schools which have the highest percentage of homeless children. They only serve the homeless children in the school. Now, this year, we were able to increase the number of Bridging the Gap social workers and get them baselined in the budget so they don’t get cut every year, and we’re hoping to grow that next year. The Charity Education Committee, Mark Treyger, and the City Council were the leaders in this, but that’s going to make a big difference.
That’s also why we have homework help at every shelter; we have after-school activities. Even our camp is based on a STEAM curriculum to try to always help children gain knowledge and retain knowledge over the summer. But the challenges are just profound.
Denver: But what you’re doing is just the opposite of custodial care. It is like a full wraparound of services to have people better their lives.
Christine: As my 93-year-old father says, “It ain’t three hots and a cot”.
…last year, 89% of the families who had left shelter the prior year were still living outside of shelter, which to me is a really great success.
Denver: He said it better than I. How do you define success at WIN? And even more importantly, how do you measure it?
Christine: So, let me start with the measure. It’s a challenge.
Denver: For everybody in the nonprofit sector, it’s a challenge.
Christine: So there are the goals. We meet with the city and our contracts, and it was so nice yesterday as some of our shelters had met their goals with housing placement and whatnot; and the Department of Homeless Services, the staff person there – I don’t remember the name – sent an email out to all of the WIN staff, CC’d me congratulating them and noting their success.
Denver: Good for them.
Christine: That was really nice. So there are those goals. But for me, the real goal is after. This is one of the reasons we’re still at such high numbers because people leave, and then they come back.
Denver: Revolving door.
Christine: Revolving door.
So, one of the placements– because there are different ways people can leave– is family reunification. The city pushes that because it’s free to the city, and it can be quicker, which means you go back to your aunt; you go back to your partner. Yes, we asked you if he’s not a batterer, but we don’t check. I mean, how do you check? So, those don’t work. They are the ones the placement has a statistically highest return-to-shelter rate.
Now, it is hard to measure because the city sees our relationship to the data on our clients as done when the family moves out.
Denver: File it away.
Christine: We do a hand tabulation every year, and last year, 89% of the families who had left shelter the prior year were still living outside of shelter, which to me is a really great success.
Denver: A wonderful number.
Christine: Yes. Now, when you ask the city: what’s their return-to-shelter rate? They’ll tell you 3% to 4% of clients return to shelter and then they’ll slip in on subsidized placements, which means night share, with a voucher, or Section 8. Ours in that category is 2%, but they’re not answering the question. So, we don’t really know what the cities —
Denver: It’s an apple and oranges comparison.
Christine: It’s quick. It’s good spin. God bless the press department, but it’s not the real number. So, I would want to know for longer than a year: Are they out of shelter? I would want to know if they left with a job; do they still have that job? If they don’t have that job, do they now have a higher-paying job?
Denver: Better job.
Christine: A better job? Or do they have no job? I would want to know how the children are doing in school. Quite frankly, kids who go to our summer STEAM camp, I would like to know whether they do better the next year in school. Because if not, we need to work on our curriculum.
Denver: Can’t do that unless you have the data
Christine: And that’s an enormous problem with the city. I know it’s something the Robin Hood Foundation is working aggressively on and lots of others, and it’s a challenge for the philanthropic world because they really want data, and I get it. They want return on investment; they want to know success, and it’s frustrating to not be able to give institutions– which are now very data-driven, very results-oriented, very sophisticated in metrics, et cetera.
Denver: I wish a few of them were a bit more sophisticated though and would agree to pay for that evaluation and that data. They want it, but too many of them don’t want to cough up for it.
Christine: That’s true.
Denver: Well, all of this costs a lot of money. This whole suite of holistic services ain’t inexpensive. So what is your funding model? What does the city do for you? Who are some of your key partners, in addition to the ones you’ve already mentioned?
Christine: So we will always, and groups like us, be a level of government funding that nonprofit business school, they would teach you, is unbalanced. That is true. It’s about 85% of our budget is government contracts. That’s because we provide a service that the city by law is required to provide; the city just recognized long ago they were not as good at it as not-for-profits, and I support that. So 85% is contracts — city, state, and federal. The vast majority is city, though that money is a pass-on, much of it from the Feds. So, we always have to be wary of what the President is saying or doing. Then the remainder comes from foundations and corporations, individual giving, events, and things of that nature.
Our income-building program has always and tremendously been supported by Pepsi; I want to give them a huge shout out. BlackRock has supported an initiative targeting income- building for young adults; that’s been great. The Clark Foundation is really the only foundation out there that also supports our advocacy work, which is great. Robin Hood is our biggest funder. Citi Group – I still want to call it Citibank, and I still think they’re in Long Island City – has been very good to us. We have a long list of folks. AT&T just gave us a grant. There’s a story in the Daily News where we’re taking juniors who were living at WIN on college tours, and Jennifer Raab of Hunter just welcomed the group wonderfully. So, just those are some.
Denver: Well, you’ve got some blue-chip names, that’s for sure.
Christine: Thank you. We have a big gala every year. One of our honorees, Ric Clark of Brookfield Group…last year, he and his team did an amazing job.
Denver: You have been known as someone who’s very goal-oriented and likes to get things done. What have you found to be the difference, Christine, about getting stuff done in the nonprofit sector as compared to the government sector?
Christine: Well, a couple things. One, when you’re in government – this is a slight bit of an exaggeration, but not really – if you’re a Speaker or somebody in a position like that, you can pick up the phone and say, “Do this” and often people have to.
Denver: Yes, in a little louder voice than that?
Christine: I was born with a loud voice – some find it annoying; such is life – but it can get much louder. It’s three phone calls; it’s two weeks of work; it’s three weeks of strategy, whatever. So that’s frustrating, that you don’t have that immediate ability. It is frustrating.
Now, the only thing I noticed when I got to WIN, within a lot of the staff now, there was, though it’s changed, the sense of “We don’t have to take that. They need us more than we need them.” “Say no” didn’t exist, and I understand it. But people felt like we had to do whatever the city wanted, the way the city wanted it, for the amount of money they wanted it. And this idea of being a provider to the city, but also advocating to change things in the city, was hard for people to wrap their minds around. But the team has done an amazing job, and you really see the frontline staff thinking about what should be on the advocacy agenda, and engaged.
So that’s something where myself and others, including our Chief Strategy Officer, Meghan Linehan, who came from government with me, I think I’ve been able to bring a particular refresher perspective about that. I’m psyched that we were able to do.
Denver: That’s really important because too many nonprofits have a beggar mentality, and it doesn’t work. What you have to do is say, “Hey. We have value in this equation as well.” And when you can deal with those folks in an equal way, it works better actually for everybody. And you have much more honest discussions than you otherwise might.
Christine: Totally. I know that’s harder for smaller groups, so I’m not unmindful about that, but we have some great umbrella groups like Homeless Services United and others who can help do that. And I know we at WIN are always prepared to stand with our sister organizations that might have a little less funding to back them up.
Denver: You miss life in city politics at all?
Christine: Yes. I mean, who wouldn’t?
Denver: Well, I don’t know a lot of people…
Christine: I loved being in government. I loved everything about it. I loved the team. I love the ability to get things done. I get to go over to the city still with all our different facilities, but I miss the more regular experience of getting to meet New Yorkers all over the city.
I once had lunch with the great late Judith Kaye, the first woman to chair the state’s highest court; she actually married me and Kim. But she said to me once if she could have been Chief Judge for five more minutes, she would have taken it, and that’s how I felt about being Speaker.
Denver: That’s a really great story there. Let me close with this, Christine. Although WIN is dealing with a systemic problem, you’re really doing so: one woman and family at a time.
Christine: That’s what the staff says all the time.
Denver: That’s the way you’ve described it. Share with us the impact your organization has had on one of those families.
Christine: I’ll tell you about the first family I ever met. This mom, she was a domestic violence survivor. She went to her cousin’s house. He found her there. He beat her basically bloody in the yard. She knew she couldn’t put her cousin in that situation; again, not thinking of herself. She ends up at WIN in one of our East Harlem shelters. And I meet her – I don’t know maybe she’s been there a couple weeks or something – beautiful little girl, super smart. She’s about 1& 1/2 at the time, but knew where all the fruit in the puzzle and knew which pieces they went into, which is a pretty big deal at that age, 1- & 1/4 or 1 & 1/2. She, I’ll never forget…she said when I met her, “Do you know what McGraw-Hill is?” I said, “Yes.” She said, “Well, WIN sent me to a women’s event there, and they gave me this.” And she went into her underwear drawer, which is where all women keep the most important things —
Denver: The valuables.
Christine: Yes, and pulls out a notebook. I’m sure the radio station has them. We all have them; it says McGraw-Hill on them. And she thrust it at me and said, “They gave me this!” And she kept saying it over and over again. She’ll never write in that notebook. It’s not a notebook; It’s a statement that a big company, a thing in the world, believed in her. I mean…
Denver: Yes. That says a lot.
Christine: It says a lot. Now, she works for the Parks Department. Last I heard, she’d gotten a license to drive the big truck, which is a big deal — I don’t know the name of a big truck, big deal. She’s contemplating – I need to find out whether where that went – of going to a horticultural college to take these courses.
Denver: That’s such a great story.
Christine: And I want to thank the Borough President, Gail Benjamin, who helped us get her the job at Parks.
Denver: It reminds me of a story. We had the CEO of Genesys on, with the job training program. You know what they do at their graduation ceremony? They gave each of the young people a business card.
Christine: That’s fabulous! Well, I need to steal that idea.
Denver: It’s like, “I’m somebody. Look at my name,” with under whatever the company may be that they’re going to go and intern with or whatever. Isn’t it great?
Christine: That’s great.
Denver: Yes. Well, you were, too.
Christine: Thank you.
Denver: Christine Quinn, the President and CEO of WIN. I want to thank you so much for being here this evening. Where can people learn more about the organization or make a contribution if they’re so inclined to do so?
Christine: Absolutely. You need to go to our website, which is winnyc.org. We’ll start doing holiday gifts for the families. We do it really great in that we get the specifics for what mom and the other parent, if there’s one, and the kids want. People then take those letters so to speak — you can do it on the computer — and buy exactly what they want. Then either our volunteers will do it, or the people who sponsored will do it. They wrap the gifts, put on the bottom the mom’s name and the unit number, so the parents or mom have it in the morning, and nobody knows it was donated. It’s as if mom went out and got it.
Denver: Very, very sweet.
Christine: So people can sign up to be holiday letters – I don’t know what we call them; we used to call them Secret Santa, but we don’t call them that anymore – anyway, holiday givers or whatever on our website. You can also sign up to give an amount monthly, sponsor different events. It makes a difference because without private financial support, we can’t do income-building, we can’t do trauma-informed care. So we really need people’s gifts.
And I understand – trust me, I’m losing sleep over Brexit. I’m not kidding. It’s such a horrible thing. Boris Johnson, I thought, that was like…I kept saying, “Well, I didn’t see that. That’s not true.” But this is a really good investment; your money will be well spent. I think the 89% speaks to that. But it’s also a good news gift. It helps.
Denver: Very positive. And unlike government money, for you, you have some discretion with it to do what you need, as opposed to having to do what the contract says.
Christine: Foundation people! Bring back some general operating. You’re killing us! So, Yes!
Denver: Thanks, Christine. It was a pleasure to have you on the show.
Christine: Thank you.
Denver: I’ll be back with more of The Business of Giving right after this.
The Business of Giving can be heard every Sunday evening between 6:00 p.m. and 7:00 p.m. Eastern on AM 970 The Answer in New York and on iHeartRadio. You can follow us @bizofgive on Twitter, @bizofgive on Instagram and at www.facebook.com/businessofgiving.